Isaiah 49:26 describes God as savior and Redeemer echoed in Galatians 4:4-5. Did the reformers believe every Catholic truth? Its on my YouTube channel BornAgainRN. In fact, the Bible often speaks about things like human sinfulness or human mortality as a universal truth and those things really are universal, but it doesnt always mention the exceptions that do occur to these universal rules. I think that what were quibbling a little bit here on the assumption, I think we actually have more things we agree on than less. One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. Back to top Alert abuse. So if youre going to say Mary sinned because an offering was made, then youd also have to say that Jesus sinned as well. Born Just as we have born the image of the earthy we, which includes Mary, we will also bear the image of the heavenly. We and also, which again includes Mary. Both conditions were initially treatable, but he declined treatment. And in fact, in the Old Testament, only begotten and firstborn are used interchangeably. We see this in Luke 3:1, and if these siblings are Jesuss adoptive siblings from Josephs previous marriage, theres absolutely no contradiction here whatsoever. So summarize, the Bible does not teach that Mary sin nor does it teach that every single human being has committed a sin or inherited original sin without exception. Sure. We see this in Psalm 69:25. It is fitting, therefore its true. Just a shameless plug, like I said, Im an author of two books. Okay, I get that. I believe all things are possible with God. Well, according to Genesis chapter or in Genesis, it says in that day, you will surely die. Rather, this counterfeit Mary developed over several centuries based on false typologies, which conflict with Scripture, no different than what Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, and Muslims have done with Jesus. So maybe you could focus on the other three, which obviously you disagree with all these three Marion dogmas, but which do you think would be the easiest for you to get on board with? Okay. What is Mary talking about in Luke One? Probably I believe it at the bodily assumption only because theres nothing in scripture that even eludes to her death, it doesnt allude to what happened at the end of her life, which even epiphany as Islamist stated that nobody knows what happened to Mary at the end of her life, which demonstrates there was no eyewitness. So theyre different contexts to examine, but thats not what were debating, whether scripture teaches it. If this verse in Psalm 69 is applied non-literally to Jesus, the verse that talks about, My mothers sons, can also be applied in a non-literal way. Our two sources of evidence during this period would be Jewish and Christian authors. Is primary meaning of adelphos that you have the same biological mother and father? This is actually based on Jeromes incorrect translation, where he used the word ipsa for she, rather than the corrected translation, which is ipsum for he, which is actually supported in Romans chapter 16 when it says, Jesus is the prince whose heel would be bruised.. Sure. He has authored over 170+ books.Andrews is the Chief Translator of the Updated American Standard Version (UASV). I think it will be. Were going to move into a time of closing statements. The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. I think thats really terrific. Do it right now. In 2 Kings 2:11, Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven, meaning he did not see death either before being assumed to heaven. It is used this way consistently in the New Testament, as well as in the Septuagint where it is used over a hundred times, such as the Sister Kingdoms of Israel and Judah who worship the same one true God of the Old Testament. This is not a commitment to lend. And I could talk about what that verse means in a lot of different context, but what is the difference between being sinful and becoming sin? on Weve got lots of great content that comes out weekly more seriously, and you dont want to miss it, so click subscribe. All righty. While Mary is a conceived in sin creation. I like you Trent. This is also the view of St. John Chrysostom as late as the fifth century, venerated as a doctor of the church of Roman Catholicism, who also believed Mary thought Jesus had gone mad. (Horn V. Christie) About Ap315: The mission of Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. And then whenever you start speaking, Ill click the time. I dont think he could do that. I think youve already said to some degree youre okay referring to Mary as the mother of God. So I think its important that each of us, we dont have a problem with We might have a problem how to apply it but the basic level mother of God isnt contradicted by scripture. Yeah. Trent had mentioned about Elijah and Enoch being assumed to heaven. So the fact is, does the Bible teach that Mary was not assumed into heaven? Good, because you know what? No, I can think of anything like that, but I would say that Marys status as being the God bearer would mean thered be many truths that are quite unique to her that we dont find in either old or New Testament. Sep 29, 2021. In Isaiah 7:16 it talks about a time before a child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. So Steve, we agree And I didnt mean to bring up the dogma Theotokos mother of God in any kind of underhanded way or way to go against our previous agreement because when people hear Marian dogmas, they think of the four of them. And Id probably want to make Peter the rock of the church. Yeah. Can you name one verse where either God or Jesus is described that way in the New Testament? So for an ancient Greek speaking person, why would adelphe have a narrower semantic range than adelphos when the only difference here is the gender? No, thats not the case. ): 32 (3488th overall since 1960) High School: Trafalgar ( Canada ) 2 2 8 2 SUMMARY Career G 229 AV 45 FGM 336 FGA 431 XPM 468 XPA 473 Career Postseason 1990 1991 September 16, 2018 by Randal. I would say that this is a really important question and one for us to look at, that for Protestants and Catholics to have dialogue with one another and to get closer to the truth, I think its huge to be able to move from And what this debate is about, is about do these beliefs contradict Scripture? Christie is currently President of Relative Goal Sports and Entertainment Management LLC., certified as a Canadian Football League contract advisor and has represented numerous musical acts in both the United States and Scotland. And then she was placed to be serving within the temple. All right. Mark chapter three, even though it doesnt explicitly state that these are Jesuss siblings, the Greek word literally means to be, like of that individual. And again, thats the view of John Chrysostom. And by the way, hi, Jeff. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. My point was that we should not believe in doctrines that plainly contradict Scripture. Brant Pitre has some great work on Mary as well for people to check out. So our listeners can go there to read that. [W]e do not know the extent of his canon. If you guys want, I just had a dialogue with Steve and Jeff on their channel. Its a good question. So just because this Psalm talks about my mothers sons, it doesnt imply that Mary gave birth to other children. Yeah. So I think Catholics have a way to honor Mary as the mother of God without divinizing her. Trent mentioned about dying once. Type it in. So Ive got two more questions here. You can also reach me on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube. Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. He went on to score 1108 points in 156 consecutive regular season and post-season games and still stands as the top scorer in Bills' history. Steve will point to Jesus in sacred scripture. And Trent and I would agree that doesnt mean it, in fact, that wasnt even an argument. He is the host of the popular, award-winning film series on salvation history, . But it doesnt demand for that though. In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. Christie has nine field goals in overtime to his credit, an NFL record he shares with Jason Elam and Jim Breech. Zacharias' daughter, Sarah Davis, posted a message on the website of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries on Tuesday, titled " Ravi Zacharias, Now With Jesus ," confirming that the . So he would be referred to as the son of Joseph sometimes. So this question is for Steve and this comes from Kevin, whos a local supporter. Luther and Zwingli though, probably they did believe that Mary was ever Virgin. How do we know Andrew and Peter are brothers? in Aberdeen Scotland., The United Kingdom Why Is the Protestant Bible Shorter than the Catholic Bible? Second thing I want to point out is you should consider joining our locals community. So before I do that, let me explain what this debate is not about. So even if that dogma is defined ex cathedra by a pope, by an ecumenical council, or by the magisterium, if it contradicts scripture, that dogma must be rejected. And my focus was on the word, adelphi, which Trent really didnt focus on, on his opening statement. He is also a Sales Associate with Charles Rutenberg Realty Inc., Florida, working with his wife, Realtor Kelly Christie. Morgan Stanley Wealth Management 631-755-8843. So we see here that messianic Psalms are often applied to Jesus in non-literal ways. Now in the Septuagint as well as in the New Testament, adelphos is used to talk about people who have the same father but different mothers. Something went wrong with your request. The resolution for this debate is the Marian Dogmas contradict scripture. Well start with an easy one, the Bodily Assumption of Mary. Protestants disagree. And if thats the case, I think hed have to say there really wasnt a church before that if he cant find someone prior to that say, yeah, that person believed essentially what I believe. That would be one. How do we know that theyre brothers? I have two chapters on it in my book, The Case for Catholicism. No, he was free from sin, but he still had a mortal human nature that could be subject to death. And see, heres the thing. Well, in your example, its talking about father. I want to comment on his use of the word veneration. And Steve, stick around because Ive got one final question for both of you, but I wanted to say two things before I do that. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Sure. And we know this because this is explicitly stated in scripture. But once again, we wouldnt assume Go ahead. Yeah. Were going to talk about the dogmas of the faith. So to everybody whos watching, please stick around. Though, I think that is a salvation issue actually. While the Greek word adelphos, translated brothers, can have numerous meetings in scripture, the specific Greek word adelphi, translated sisters, only has two. Did they believe that the doctrine of Marys perpetual virginity violated the authority of scripture? Did some Jews during this time recognize the inspiration of these texts? And hes not. Its always nice to see people who are willing to put forward rigorous argument and engage others charitably. And I think we both agree on the assumption, Steve said it the Bible does not say Mary was not assumed into heaven, and in order to try to show her assumption would contradict it, we had to use a very speculative argument about that she did not need to be rescued from death, even though that doesnt apply to every case where God would take someone into heaven. Locals is a free speech platform. Lets start with the last books of the Protestant Old Testament, which Christie and many other Protestants says are Ezra and Nehemiah in the fifth century B.C. Then theres going to be a time of cross-examination, and then were going to do 30 minutes of Q&A. God is Marys savior because he regarded her lowly state and shes been lifted out of it by being called to bring the Messiah into the world. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. Yeah. I would say the church subsist in the Catholic church though other non-Catholic Christians have an imperfect communion with the church. Email steve.christie@mrcaustralia.com.au. Well, first of all, I would say that I disagree with Trent as a Catholic as how you define the word church, that in Roman Catholicism church is defined specifically as the Pope of the magisterium, and then when you get baptized in the church, you become part of that. Get your complimentary mortgage payment estimate* Apply Now. How would you treat that thing? I would stress that we look at what the church teaches in its magisterial teachings about Mary and her important role in salvation. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". January 07, 1964. And she doesnt mention sin in this part of Luke one. And this is what I did in the opening statement. Give the person you disagree with a listen, really try to understand where theyre coming from because if after hearing their position, you still disagree with it, at least youll be better informed about what Protestants or Catholics believe so you can better engage them and resist the temptation to attack straw met. No. General Manager New South Wales MRC Australia Sep 2017 - Dec 2018 1 year 4 months. He writes, As a Pharisee, the apostle Paul would have understood the Law and the Prophets to refer to only those writings found in Protestant Old Testaments today. But this argument fails for the following reasons. It follows that Mary is the mother of God. But were not debating whether the Marian Dogmas have a historical foundation in the writings of the church fathers. Ravi Zacharias, the prominent Christian apologetics author and speaker, died Tuesday at the age of 74 following a battle with a rare form of cancer. You can finish your thought, if you want real quick, Steve. Heres a question that I have that Id be interested in both of you answering. Its [inaudible 01:14:35]. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. This question is for Steve from super chat megentlevolp. Perhaps John witnessed this event and then told others or this may have been given to John through some other kind of revelation. Go to Case For Catholicism, if you want more. So thats all up there as well. So hes just talking about this birthright that he mentions about 10 versus later. Well, it is an argument that actually I hear from a lot of contemporary Catholic apologists. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. Okay, so now we are going to move into 10-minute rebuttals. While the wages of sin is death refers to spiritual death, that is the second death. However, in Acts 26:5 Paul tells King Agrippa that he lived (past tense) as a Pharisee. When it came to the immaculate conception, Steve did not really put forward any argument to show Mary sinned herself. And, as it turns out, Christies book fails to produce any such standard. We see this in Zechariah 12:10, where it talks about, They look on him who theyve pierced. They have also lived in Garden City Park, NY and Bayside, NY. Well, theres Pokemon The First Movie, and it was so bad, there were no other movies. The last one to be accepted was the bodily assumption of Mary. Steve Christie also has his own website. For storing and sharing my Apologetic Infographics. So when it comes to Mary, idolatry would occur if we were to give Mary worship that is due to God alone. Offering a sacrifice to Mary would be an inappropriate. He was a key contributor in the Bills comeback win against the Houston Oilers, in which Buffalo rallied from a 32-point deficit[2] to complete the largest comeback victory in NFL history. Apologetics for the Masses #366 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part III. If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died needlessly. Galatians 2:21. And then hopefully, in my next turn, Ill be able to address some of the other arguments that Steve has raised. Steve Christie Geoffrey Stephen Christie Position: K 6-0 , 195lb (183cm, 88kg) Born: November 13 in Oakville, Ontario (Age: 55-107d) College: William & Mary Weighted Career AV (100-95-. I would ask him this question, you can answer it now or some other venue, who was the first Christian, like author, father, theologian, who held to the same theology that Steve does? So I agree with that. I cant go into that in detail here in the answer, but I might talk about it in a future podcast episode. So I would say that James and Joseph are also the son of the sons of Joseph. Steve Skojec, Christian Apologetics, and the Problem of Faith June 2, 2021 Esther O'Reilly Patheos Explore the world's faith through different perspectives on religion and spirituality! . This was the view that St. Augustine said, when he said that in Psalm 69:5, the mother is not married, but Israel and the brethren are the other sons of Israel who spurn him. Okay. G.K. Chesterton - famous author, philosopher, theologian, apologist. Though, I will say the Septuagint was completed only within a few centuries, possibly even one century, by the time of Jesus crucifixion. While Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit, the Psalmists wrote, In sin, my mother conceived me. Echoed later by the apostle Paul all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The Greek word translated all [foreign language 00:08:51] translated everyone, which includes Mary in her conception, but obviously not Jesus since scripture explicitly states, Jesus was without sin. Well, the relevance is the fact that the word adelphos for brother, the primary meaning means a biological sibling, so unless theres a reason in the context of [inaudible 01:13:28]. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. And yeah, I would just encourage others, Ive always said this, I dont see debates as a way to end an issue. It was only four yards short of the all-time NFL record. What about after the apostolic age? Okay. So was Jesus free from sin and he also died? In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. Well, why would I believe that Marys parents-. So youre going to agree it does not deny Mary was assumed into heaven? James White: Steve Ray is a Dolt, Dunce, Imbecile, Idiot, and Ignoramus *** [] What is clear is that Ray has not seriously interacted with anything other than this kind of "Jack Chick/Dave Hunt . Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? Dont have the context of this question. Im sure Trent doesnt think that that man is immaculate conceived, because there are those at Catholic Answers and elsewhere who thinks [Greek 00:48:09] or [Greek 00:48:11] eight means that they were always in a state of grace, meaning that Mary was sinless. Okay. Itll make me feel really good if nothing else. After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. Take your time there, Steve, getting yourself ready. And since the context of Hebrews 11 includes the men of old [who] received divine approval (v. 2), it follows that the books describing the Maccabean martyrs were part of the Old Testament that was used by the author of the letter to the Hebrews. All right. Oh wow. People are familiar with this one about why Protestant Bibles are smaller. So then if Jesus was referred to as the carpenters son, and its a patronym, would this eliminate his brothers being older stepbrothers, according to the Protoevangelium of James? As long the difference between Mariological title versus Christological title, thats probably where we would disagree, but go ahead. In that day, you will surely die. Which he eventually did. Thats why theyre diverging traditions on whether Mary died or not, but you dont find the first denial of Marys assumption until in the late early middle ages. Anything else you might disagree with? Im a little disturbed about the comment about anything in Scripture being in error, because if we cannot trust that when it says about Jesus being our savior and rising from the dead. Its a way to begin exploration of it. Though a mere chip-shot, from 32 yards, the three-pointer enabled . Yeah. Also the Greek word for brother, its not always you to represent full brothers. And you, just so people are aware, arent being mean or anything by doing that. "Bills and Eagles Turn Mountains Into Molehill; Buffalo Erases 35-Point Deficit", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steve_Christie&oldid=1134968114, College of William & Mary Sports Hall of Fame, This page was last edited on 21 January 2023, at 20:11. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. So we have to read the context. To say here Richard [Bachum 00:28:46], for example, who rejects, a Protestant scholar who rejects the Perpetual Virginity of Mary says, Its strange Jesus is called the son of Mary in Mark 6:3, rather than the son of Joseph. But that would make sense if Jesus had been born of Josephs second wife, Mary. Steve, you are going to be beginning with 15 minutes. Hebrews 11:35 describes a group of people in the Old Testament period who were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they may rise again to a better life. The only record of this is found in 2 Maccabees 7, which describes brothers who accept torture at the hands of the Seleucids instead of eating pork and violating Jewish law. He might redeem or rescue from bondage those who were under the law because we, which includes Mary, have redemption, the forgiveness of sins, Colossians 1:14. He has the burden of proving that the dogmas contradict scripture. Alright what about the Immaculate Conception? Well, Scripture seems silent on the matter, not resolved, but at least it doesnt contradict Scripture, then I would say we should treat the Marian dogmas like youre a Protestant. Get a Quote *The mortgage payment quiz is for estimation purposes only. Well, not necessarily. Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. Man commits idolatry when he honors and reviews a creature in place of God. They go into the glory of God. No, it doesnt. Im also going to send Matt a link to my other channel, verasage.us/stevechristie. By providing an accessible and growing repository of teaching materials, as well as providing a means of networking within the apologetics community, ourvisionis to be a significant educational resource for churches, campus groups, and Christians around the world. So ultimately, weve seen this and I think whats important to remember all of this, that these dogmas do not take the place of Christ. And the same is true for us, that Mary was free from sin, but she still had an earthy body. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button right now. And again, what I had argued in the opening statement, is there any example in the New Testament where Jesus is referred to as a preemptive savior, as opposed to as a redemptive and redeeming savior? Mary did not need to be immaculate conceived since sin is not a trait that is passed down physically, but a spiritual condition. In Luke 3:1 its used to describe Herod Antipas and Herod Philip who had the same father, but they were born of different mothers, just as Jesus and his brethren were born of different mothers. As the Protestant scholar J.N.D. Obviously the Bible does not teach that every woman had sexual relations. He made all 27 extra-point attempts and 23 of 27 field goal tries in his rookie season. That seems to be something that went without contention. As far as Jesus brothers and sisters, I probably have studied that more than anything else and that would probably be the hardest for me to accept or maybe Mary being sinless because I mean, Trent, you got a seven year old, its like is as good as a kid as he is based on who his parents are. So at an early age, I think about around age three. Trent had mentioned about Mary and her Magnificat saying, God, my savior, and she was referring back to Hannah. That was a really well articulated opening statement and I appreciate it. 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