Further, the world is complex and any given effect can have many different possible causes, especially if we are talking about biological systems. We know God worked many and mighty miracles throughout biblical times, but for many Christians, we dont see as much evidence for miracles in our lives as there was in biblical times. Please open it and confirm your subscription. He doesn't seem to understand the ways that people can fool themselves. She deteriorated over a period of many years, several operations, many hospitalizations," Strobel explained. Keener doesn't explore alternative hypotheses and how he'd distinguish between them. Even her muscles were unatrophied. Since these diseases are genetic, it makes it a lot less likely that she had this condition. Author and evangelist Lee Strobel was once an atheist who served as the legal affairs editor for the Chicago Tribune before embarking on a quest to try and disprove Christianityan effort that ironically led him to embrace faith. So tell our listeners some of the stories that you uncovered as a result of your research. It is quite clear that once you allow one miraculous healing in, using evidence of just one person, then one has to let in a whole host of others. The outcome was either a change in vision or hearing. I could show you cases of arms growing back theoretically speaking and you would not believe it you would come up with natural explanations. Of course this is ludicrous, because teeth-brushing would occur twice a day, every day, so every single event would follow a teeth-brushing. It is a reasonable question to ask -- how much evidence is enough? Converted to Pelican theme by Brian Blais. Barbaras impact on this university has been so broad and deep that we will not understand the full extent of her legacy for years and perhaps decades to come, Wyant said. This seems really strange, if we are to believe the magnitude of the healing -- she claims to have gone from nearly blind to nearly perfect instantaneously, yet doesn't get this checked out immediately? About a week and a half later at my daughter Allison's soccer there were like 20 families and 20 moms and dads there and one of the fathers that I had said hi to but i didn't know him, walks up to me and he says "Hi, I'm so-and-so" and I said "I'm JP" and he said "how are you doing?" Barbara Rook "Babs" Snyder is an American academic and president of the Association of American Universities. She graduated from the University of Chicago School of Law, where she served as executive editor of the law review. It's here for completeness, even though there isn't much more we can say. She is the former president of Case Western Reserve University. He seems really swayed by anecdotal evidence in everything he's written or said, from my experience. I went over her solutions when she did , Skepticism and Dubious Medical Procedures. A prolific author, he has written numerous bible commentaries and other works in biblical studies, in addition to his 2 volume work, Miracles. When I've heard the murderer analogy it is to argue against Hume's uniform human experience against miracles, because someone could argue for the murderer by claiming it is against his uniform experience to murder someone -- he's never murdered anyone before. President Barbara R. Snyder announced today that she will View the profiles of people named Barbara Snyder. Really? I asked. Though he believed the Biblical stories of Christs miracles, Strobel was less convinced miracles were happening today. The first step -- which the theists have not achieved -- is to just demonstrate that there is a real effect to be investigated. The precise timing of Snyders Patients in the prayer group had less congestive heart failure, fewer cardiac arrests, fewer episodes of pneumonia, were less often intubated and ventilated, and needed less diuretic and antibiotic therapy. Craig Keener: Greg Spencer is a case of this. A comparison of base-rates is needed and Keener doesn't seem to care about this when it comes to miracles. A doctor won't want to look at a regrown kidney because it will look like he did insurance fraud. Which I agree with, at least technically. [3] Before Snyder became president of CWRU in July 2007, she was formerly the executive vice president and provost of Ohio State University. She worked as a teacher's aide for Headstart and was a member of St. Mary's Church in Elmira, NY. Craig Keener: Probably what surprised me the most was the real evidence for it. The study mentioned by Strobel in the video above, and the one I mention in relation to healings of deafness and blindness and how it compares (very favorably) to hypnosis studies, The following is a section from Strobels book that references some of the gold standard scientific studies that show the effectiveness of prayer, which I briefly mentioned in the podcast. At least there is documentation published at https://seangeorge.com.au/my-story/medical-details/. He says, he's going back to these passages about the coming of the [inaudible] and saying, "John, these are signs of the Kingdom right now." It is for these sorts of problems that randomized controlled studies are developed and are necessary to distinguish effect from non-effect. Scott Rae: Right. Ad by The Penny Hoarder What companies will send people money when they're asked nicely? Its consultants have assisted with the recruitment of multiple senior CWRU Get the news that matters most delivered directly to your inbox. It will be life-changing for those individuals, for sure, even under the condition where there are no miracles. So for example, if I just say oh well there was spontaneous remission you could say that's implausible given our medical knowledge but it's going to be very hard to establish that that's actually like impossible, to definitively rule it out and so the question of which is a more plausible explanation and not can you rule it out. Scott Rae: Well that gets us to the books that I want to talk more about today. We can see the stories changing in the telling, being simplified, critical details dropped. So her initial eyesight is 7/200, quite poor. It got to the point where she was dying. Sometimes running for their lives. But at a time when higher education itself faces Thank you for being with us. Craig Keener: Well everybody has a love story. It's in American History, which is not, well there's a lot of Americans who can teach American History, so she especially teaches French. On the one hand they use the excuse of "it's not replicable" when asked about how to test it, and on the other hand they want to also say that miracles are common -- more common than people realize. I could just as well say that her brushing her teeth caused the healing, because she was healed in the evening shortly after she brushed her teeth. He already was on disability for this. At a minimum, one has to. This highlights many of the problems I've been talking about and we get to see it in real-time. Listen to Strobel describe his journey and the most memorable miracle hes encountered below: Strobel said that he has long believed thatJesus performed the miracles described in the Gospels. Adding to that, he had some skepticism about some of the charlatans who have been exposed for making false claims about healings and the like. James says, to refuse to put in the controls to avoid the biases we know we have, is a form of dogmatism -- we're looking for the result we already believe and we refuse to put in the methods that would allow us to isolate the different variables. We are interested in the truth and are aware of many other factors (e.g. It's not enough to be given the treatment and see an improvement afterward. This male voice coming from the corner of the room where nobody was said, 'Get up my child and walk, Strobel recounted. perhaps a misdiagnosis of Stargardt's disease, and a gradual improvement for other reasons. And so on. It's a long story. As James pointed out, individual testimony is irrelevant. An immediate thought is how many times was he prayed over and nothing happened? Even in seemingly obvious cases. I sort of think that these popular apologetics books will briefly touch on some of these tools that should be used but then that's a stand-in that makes people think that they're actually using them. This is trying to have your cake and eat it too. Jonathan McLatchie vs Jonathan Pearce, documentation for the Barbara Snyder case, https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=control&category_name=&submit=Search, this woman was healed of Parkinson's with "Energy Healing". Craig Keener: It's my privilege. He has served in a variety of teaching and leadership roles, including a term as president of the Evangelical Theological Society in 2015. It's not biased to be skeptical. The opportunity to serve as Case But I'm grateful for the, the engagement that's come since then because there has been a lot of good engagement and people have taken it seriously and taken to heart some of the arguments in it. All subjects demonstrated improvement from the intervention. Hey, thanks for listening. Here PhD is in history. The blind will see. Scott Rae: Wow, I guess it did. Likewise, Americans are quite prone to believing in the potential occurrence of miracles. She wanted to be with her family even though there was a war going on. A gymnast back in high school, Barbara hadn't walked in seven years. Yeah ,that's what Ii just asked you about! Western Reserves president has been the greatest professional privilege of my Just to have the words "inference to the best explanation" that legitimizes the inference that you're making rather than actually being able to use inference to the best explanation. We don't get to choose what our test is. And they said, "Macular degeneration doesn't undegenerate." Sometimes God uses things. I think a lot of times people will see something as a miracle because we're inclined to believe in miracles, you can also have confirmation bias to say I'm inclined not to see this as a miracle because I just don't think those things happen. To this day.. Enter your email address to follow this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. Barbara was married to the late Robert L. Snyder. We don't know the timeline at all or the specifics, or any actual measurements. But this one, I think, we were also able to communicate something of guts, heart in the midst of suffering. But it's a wonderful volume. Reserve today is in a position to attract a broad range of outstanding The bias is on the person making the positive claim. diagnosis by the Mayo Clinic, her condition declined over the next 15 years. I had heard the story before from my wife, but it was actually when I interviewed the, my wife's source, that I got the details. Dying M.S. Craig Keener: Yeah, and part of it was inherited through my academic training. However, it is a fallacy to say that, because we could in principle have better evidence, we therefore do not have good or sufficient evidence. Biography [ edit] So the first part of the answer is sort of true but trivial and also not what they've been doing but then the second part contradicts that by saying "just assume that it's true anyway and start praying for people." What is being missed here is it shouldn't matter what the skeptic says -- the evidence should be strong enough to convince the skeptic. "It got to the point where she was dying. I don't understand how it's possible for both those things to be true. In Steven Novella's post at Proximal Intercessory Prayer, he comments (on a different case, but applicable here). randomized controlled studies, well considered controls, etc) to avoid these confounders. It's just like a lack of imagination there's just like Christian fundamentalism and there's atheist naturalism and there's no other world views, apparently. Is it possible that there was MS and something else, in which case looking for a full recovery from MS is misdirected? Somebody we know, actually there were two people we know, who are witnesses of that one. Healings, casting out spirits, nature miracles in Mark and so on. Author and evangelist Lee Strobel was once an atheist who served as the legal affairs editor for the Chicago Tribune before embarking on a quest to try and disprove Christianity an effort that ironically led him to embrace faith. [4], Following the announcement that Gordon Gee would retire as President of the Ohio State University effective July 1, 2013, speculation arose that Snyder, the former Provost and Executive Vice President of Ohio State, could succeed Gee. It was really the miracle of the resurrection and the historical evidence for that that ended up bringing me to faith many years ago, Strobel told Pure Flix Insider and The Billy Hallowell Podcast. But my skepticism didn't go away.. In his book, The Case for Miracles, evangelist Lee Strobel cites the miraculous healing of Barbara Snyder that took place nearly 30 years ago. 2021 - All rights reserved. Lee Strobels Miracles talk (25 minute segment), Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Proximal Intercessory Prayer (STEPP) on Auditory and Visual Impairments in Rural Mozambique, In conversation with Digital Gnosis (Nathan Ormond), Street Epistemology with Eddie (Deep Discussions), Thoughts on the Randal Rauser vs. For example, if you take the population of people who go to Rome on pilgrimage each year, you can calculate the fraction of those with diseases that will go into remission. It's not the fullness. Skepticism is basically that we proportion our belief to the evidence, and we've found (through science) that to do it we need to disbelieve most claims, that we need to acknowledge our biases, and to recognize that even the scientific process is limited. Elijah: I think this: the fact that there are fake miracles does not preclude the fact that there can be real miracles. In secular circles, well on the Internet at least, Atheists came out with critiques of it right away. And so that's kind of what prompted me to investigate this issue.. I think it also is evident that the theists aren't serious about studying these things, and are content to believe things on bad evidence. Elijah: they can verify that before and afterwards and i'm not sure it's rational to call those uh uh just coincidences like you're assuming some type of causality there um and i i think if you even allow for the possibility of something like the christian god to exist then um you've got to take seriously that it could be his action and then make an inference to the best explanation and where i think the voice of science comes in the best is in eliminating hypotheses not necessarily proving that's his voice and so you can go back and go well there's seven different hypotheses science can help us before eliminating some and then we've got two or three and we've got to critically think and go what do i think's most likely the case and i think that's the human situation and we make that call all the time we make it in court. As Nathan puts it, it's telling believers who doubt "stop those naughty thoughts." Partly, because we are human and have many biases. Despite several operations and treatments, Barbara continued to deteriorate to the point that she was put into respite with doctor's orders not to resuscitate. and Ada Thompson Professor of Biblical Studies at Asbury Theological Seminary in Kentucky. I'm just wondering, is it possible to do it the other way around? Wed 23 March 2022 Yes, I'll look for these mundane explanations first before jumping to agency, because those are the most common explanations of extraordinary claims. And so I guess my first question is, what motivated you to undertake that because your field has been pretty technical New Testament studies. But you in the west, you have this wonderful medical technology. Here I look into the papers he references in response. "Barbara Snyder was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis. In my discussion with Jonathan McLatchie on the Still Unbelievable podcast, I said that there hasnt been a verified miracle claim even since Humes essay on miracles. I want to refer our listeners to your two volume series on miracles. Craig Keener: In Christian circles it's been received really, really well. Medical science has come a long way recognizing the fact that humans are easily fooled, they see patterns and agency where there isn't any good evidence, and biology is messy enough that uncertainty is always something to consider. At the end of the project, Strobel said he was shocked to learn that miracles are not only common, but also well-documented. And that was, that was really hard. We also can't rule out that he was prayed for many many times in 16 years, and only at this particular time for some other reason he recovered. National Colloquium on Library Special CollectionsPresident's RemarksBarbara Snyder, President, Case Western Reserve University10/22/2014President's remarksC. Barbara Snyder (Barbara Cummiskey Snyder) - healed from multiple sclerosis The institution that is referenced for the work is Global Medical Research Institute (GMRI) and the documentary about miracles referenced is Send Proof. "One day, one of her friends called WMBI, which is the radio station in Chicago run by the Moody Bible Institute, and said, 'Pray for Barbara. I don't think "I don't know" should be your default position unless that's really where you fall and so what I encourage people to do is read all sides, make an inference to the best explanation and go "this is what i think is most likely the case". But there is another reason to study proximal prayer, which in this study meant physical laying on of hands, not just being near the subject. A noted Christian scholar and ethicist, Scott is the author of such books as Moral Choices: An Introduction to Ethics; Business for the Common Good; and Beyond Integrity: A Judeo-Christian Approach to Business Ethics. achievements during Snyders tenure include: Association of American Universities (AAU), Maltz Center donors, performers celebrate Phase II, School of Medicine graduate program information tabling event, Summer study abroad with CWRU faculty information session, New study reveals ketamine could be effective treatment for cocaine-use disorders, Get to know members of the National Pan-Hellenic Council at CWRU: Week 3, Begun with a $1 billion goal, it ultimately raised. One day, one of her friends called WMBI, which is the radio station in Chicago run by the Moody Bible Institute, and said, 'Pray for Barbara. We we need a whole lot of a whole lot of cases to be able to to examine that. And, in fact, one doctor described her as being one of the most hopelessly ill patients he'd ever encountered.. Barbara Snyder arrived at a We make a mistake in the episode here about corrected vs uncorrected vision measurements. And remember Think Biblically about everything. Strobel said that he has long believed that Jesus performed the miracles described in the Gospels. The dead will be raised." We know that the healing was observed after the prayer, but we don't know if it caused it because we can't rule out an earlier recovery that went unnoticed. Studies of distant intercessory prayer have been essentially negative we see the typical random scatter of results expected of an ineffective treatment, with no consistent pattern of positive results, and with the best studies being negative. The same thing occurs with UFO claims, homeopathy studies, and psychic abilities. Craig Keener: Yeah, she came on a fiance visa, which unfortunately took a bit longer than it should have because by the time we finally made up our minds to get together 9/11 happened right when we were getting ready to send the materials in. I mean I can explain theologically the already not yet of the Kingdom why it doesn't happen to everybody, but why this one and not that one? Craig Keener: Yeah. partnerships that have drawn national acclaim. Why don't we just simply believe. Bladder and stomach control were lost. This is pretty silly. #media. It is justified to demand better evidence, because we do that for even more modest claims, and we have centuries of data on the failings of human reasoning in inferring causes from effects. "It got to the point where she was dying. the natural explanation -- some natural healing plus the imaging being unreliable, the secondary measurement said "approximately 6 feet" as opposed to 3ft, so the "approximately" is doing a lot of work, perhaps under extreme damage there is more healing, but we haven't seen this in other cases because of the rarity of the effect. I wrote about some of these cases in another post and I've written about miracles many times. Snyder, who became president of Case Western Reserve I doubt Keener has tried to actually get this done beyond the anecdotal level. (Read also:Columbine survivors powerful lessons after facing terror). It's not enough to show an effect that's really rare, maybe that's your first motivation, like "oh wow, this is a weird case. If the Anchor.fm widget isnt showing up above, click here to listen. What surprised you? Strobel said he was shocked to learn that miracles are not only common, but applicable here ) think! 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